A lot of us struggle with shame, self-sabotage, and setting boundaries. I know I used to! Andrea Owen, author and life coach, is here to tell you the hard truth. That shame is inevitable in life and it’s not going away. BUT, self-compassion, empathy, and mindfulness are key components of building shame resilience. We also talk about how personal growth ebbs and flows and setting boundaries is essential. Yes it can be challenging, but it is important to prioritize your own needs and well-being.
Listen in as Andrea explains:
🔹Shame as a normal and inevitable part of life, rather than something to be overcome.
🔹The connection between shame and behaviors such as people-pleasing and perfectionism.
🔹Strategies for building shame resilience, including self-compassion, empathy, and speaking shame.
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GUEST EXPERT: Andrea Owen | https://andreaowen.com/
Keynote Speaker. Life coach. Author. Hellraiser. Andrea Owen is creating a global impact in women’s empowerment with her books being translated into 19 languages and available in 23 countries.
She helps high-achieving women maximize unshakeable confidence, master their mindset, and magnify their courage. You can learn more at andreaowen.com.
Find Us: @larkinyogatv and @heyandreaowen
Andrea’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/heyandreaowen/,
Get Andrea’s Books: https://andreaowen.com/books/
Self compassion test: https://self-compassion.org/self-compassion-test/
FREE Practice: SOMATIC YOGA FOR REPRESSED EMOTIONS | Somatic Exercises for Anger Release & Trauma Healing w/ Music
Relevant Blog: Self Love for Women: How to Cultivate Compassion and Confidence
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🎧 Also Listen to:
#284 – How to Love Your [Broken, Dark and Angry] Self with Katie Silcox
#299 – Strategies to Slay Imposter Syndrome and Share Your Gifts
#333 – Reparent Your Inner Child with Christine Hassler
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Transcript:
Brett:
Hi everyone, welcome back to the show. I’m excited to be here with a friend and fellow author, life coach and keynote speaker and hell raiser, Andrea Owen. We share our literary agent, so we both love our agent. You should go check out all her books which have been translated into 19 different languages. And she helps high achieving women maximize unshakable confidence, master their mindset and magnify their courage.
But today we’re taking a little bit of a different spin on this because in order to do all those things, you need to overcome both self -sabotage, which we talk about a lot on this show, but also feelings of shame and unworthiness that you may be feeling. And Andrea, I know you said that shame is often misinterpreted. So say hi, tell everyone a little bit about who you are, and then let’s dive into what we’re getting wrong about understanding shame.
Andrea Owen:
Yeah. Hi everyone. And Brett, thank you so much for having me on. I’m excited to dive in. There’s a lot to cover. So if anyone’s listening to this and they’re note takers, now would be a good episode to do that on, where you can go back in and listen to it again. I think where I would love to start is that I don’t like using the word overcome shame, because shame is something that you are going to, if you are kind of healthy, emotional human, you’re going to.
have it in your life. You’re going to have to face it, I’m sorry. There’s not a way to just eradicate it. That would be amazing. And I would probably be a bazillionaire. But we learn how to manage it. We learn how to be resilient to it when we’re faced with it. And the misconceptions that I hear a decent amount. So I got certified in the work of Dr. Brene Brown. I’m sure a lot of your listeners are familiar with her work around connection, courage, and also shame.
And honestly, if somebody would have told me that this is the work that I’m going to be doing, if they would have told me that 20 years ago, I would have laughed. But alas, here I am. I think it’s the things that we resist the most that are the things that are our biggest teachers when we finally face them. The misconception is that we often think that if we’re talking about shame or we hear somebody on a podcast coming to talk about shame, that it shows up in our life as I’m walking around feeling ashamed.
for all the things I’ve done, for who I am as a human, and that’s not really the case. My second book is all about the behaviors that we employ because we are actively trying to avoid shame. That is self -sabotage, people -pleasing, perfectionism, control, blame, isolating and hiding out, numbing out. These are all behaviors that we all do. I still do some of them. You know, they’re…
unhealthy coping mechanisms is what they are. And we do them in an effort to avoid shame. So, and also I doubt any of your listeners have a value around people pleasing and self -sabotage. Like that’s not the person they want to show up and be. So when we are participating in those behaviors, we’re letting shame run the show essentially. So that’s sort of the, the open door where I talk about shame is the intersection of.
healthy and unhealthy coping mechanisms, and then shame resilience. So that’s where I start the conversation.
Brett
Well, this is interesting because I think I talk a lot about people pleasing, but I never think that I’m like, I don’t think I’ve put together that potentially I’m people pleasing because I want to avoid a feeling of shame. Can you speak to that a little more? Like I’m.
Andrea Owen
Yeah, for sure. So for instance, like we all have these ways that, and largely these are unconscious, like the way that we want to be perceived by other people, our ideal identity, that’s what we call that. And also ways that we don’t, how we would never want to be perceived by other people. So you and I have those as we’re having this conversation. As I show up as an expert on your show, I want to show up as someone who’s professional, who’s well -spoken.
who’s articulate, who is knowledgeable on the topic, and also punctual, kind, approachable. These are all the ways that I want to be perceived. And sometimes when we are at risk of being perceived the opposite way, so if I completely, I had to set a reminder on my watch to make sure I came to this thing because it’s the only appointment on my list.
around my schedule today and it’s after I pick up my kids. So I will forget if I don’t. And if I did, I would drop into shame. I’m at risk for dropping into shame. So sometimes when, cause I have no control over how you perceive me. If I did forget and then you send me an email and you’re like, Hey Andrea, I thought we were on for four o ‘clock today. And I’m like, shit. You know, like, and that I might drop into shame. And what I might do is people please.
So this is many times where we run into going over like above and beyond, I might say like, and be so mortified over missing the appointment. And if this was at work, like I might stay late. I might ask if you want me to do any special favors for you and just to try to sort of make up for it. So that’s where, where shame can come in. And just one more thing around that, you know, as women and girls were raised to understand.
and we accept the social conditioning around other people’s comfort comes before our own. And we are valued more when we are extraordinarily selfless, when we don’t rock the boat, when we don’t make a scene, when we don’t push back against anything. And we do not break those rules for fear of being rejected, for fear of being ashamed, for fear of being criticized.
And so it can feel very isolating when we do make those, when we make mistakes, when we, you know, kind of venture out on our own and speak our mind and things like that. So that’s kind of a longer answer of how people pleasing can be connected to shame.
Brett
It’s almost like we have, I love how you describe the ideal identity and the way we want to be perceived. But what’s so funny is we don’t even really fully have control of that. Like I have the way I want to be perceived, but so much of that is conditioning, right? Like I’ve been told since I was young that I should acquiesce and I should be nice and I should, you know, basically suffer discomfort in order to make other people more comfortable.
Andrea Owen
come on. Exactly.
Brett
And then rubber hits the road when I start awakening or developing spiritually all other things we talk about on this show and I realize, you know what, I actually don’t like that. I’ve never liked that. But then it’s kind of like this friction of like, okay, now how do I actually articulate that in a world where I feel like if I articulate that I’m letting my ideal identity down. And it’s almost like this.
ideal identity of this like larger cultural narrative in many ways that has been forced on us. Do you want to speak to that a little bit more?
Andrea Owen
Yeah, for sure. And just before I say that too, our unwanted identities, which are usually the opposite of our ideal identities, those are our triggers. And I do this in a much larger concept with people in retreats and as clients. And we spend hours here because you have ideal and unwanted identities in every area of your life. So every hat that you wear, you have one as a mother. You have one as…
as a partner. And I mean, that’s a big one for a lot of women. It’s, you know, we don’t want to be seen as needy or having a lot of issues or, you know, being dramatic or too emotional, et cetera, et cetera. And so now I totally forgot your question, Brett. I’m so sorry, period, menopause.
Brett (07:46)
No, no, we were just talking about like the larger cultural narrative of being the good girl, essentially.
Andrea Owen (07:49)
yes. Okay. Yeah. One of the questions I ask in my third book from the very, very beginning, and then I sprinkle it throughout, is the question to ask yourself when you’re faced with even just like saying no when your body wants to say no, but you feel like you should say yes to someone is ask yourself the question, what is my conditioning versus what is my truth? And usually those are two very, very different things.
Brett (08:12)
Mmm.
Andrea Owen (08:16)
Because your conditioning is the thing that tells you, you should always say yes, like be nice, be polite. And your truth is what your body’s usually telling you. It’s your intuition. It’s your sixth sense of saying, no, I don’t like this. I don’t want this person to touch me. I don’t want to do X, Y, and Z. And so the thing about our social conditioning that I just want to mention is that once you see it, you can’t unsee it. That’s one. Two.
the unlearning can be like a lifelong challenge as well as feel like the unraveling of your identity. The number three is like you are likely going to lose people. You are likely going to get people who do not like that you set boundaries, that you are not letting them take advantage of you. You’re going to be perceived a certain way. And exactly like you said, like we have no control how other people perceive us.
Brett (09:13)
I think that’s a good reminder. I mean, we don’t have control. So all we can do is stay true to ourselves. Let’s double click a little bit into setting boundaries because I know that a lot of people listening, maybe you want to start a yoga business or they want to start teaching, but they’re overwhelmed. They have a lot of other commitments. Maybe they have a family full -time job, but they have this dream, right? Of helping others, healing others. And the reality is that that dream will die unless you can set boundaries in order to nurture and grow.
your business, your education, to really blossom into who you’re becoming. But so many people, myself included, find it difficult or it seems confrontational to set a simple boundary. I know you’ve written so many incredible books. So what are some of your tips that you give women on how to set those boundaries, like things we can think about actually in those frictional moments?
where someone’s asking us of something, we’re in this identity push -pull and we need to actually make a different choice.
Andrea Owen (10:12)
Yeah, I think that I want to say this too, is that I think sometimes when we run in these circles of personal growth, we can start to compare our own self growth to others and even our own self awareness to others. And I see a lot of perfectionism within personal growth and like wanting to do it right and like, I’m not doing it right. You know, Brett’s so good at setting boundaries and I’m terrible at it. And that whole rabbit hole, I think that everyone has a different.
pain tolerance, just like actual physical pain. The tattoos on my arm might have hurt me a ton, but maybe to somebody else, they didn’t hurt as much. And so it’s the same with how much pain you can take in terms of when you are going to actually set the boundary. What I hear from a lot of women in my audience is that they’re ready. They’re like, OK, I want to set these boundaries. I just don’t know what to say. And that is very real, right? We’re not ever taught this. We’re taught to just acquiesce and just to…
Brett (11:03)
Right, yes.
Andrea Owen (11:11)
to say the quote unquote the right thing. And so I think that it’s really two separate kind of sandwiches, if you will. The one is unpacking why it’s so hard for you to even set the boundary in the first place, all of that. And that’s like cultural stuff, social conditioning, it might be family of origin stuff, what was modeled for you, feeling like you’re gonna be rejected from your family or your community, et cetera. That is all.
great to be done probably with a therapist. And then the second part of what to say, I can give you the one, two, threes of that here on the show, or I can point people, you know, there are so many great books that people have written specifically about boundaries and look for books that have scripts. Those are, and I’m sure you could even like ask chat, GTP, write me a boundary around, you know, put in your situation with kindness, clarity and grace or something like that. And
And I also just want to say one more thing on that is that when you have been raised in a culture and probably a family that tells you that people pleasing is the way for you to feel worthy and belong and to feel love to do anything different feels confrontational feels it can feel even cruel. Like how dare I, you know, say no or carve out time for myself. And so.
I just want to normalize that and acknowledge that for people who are kind of beating themselves up for having such a hard time with it. Like you’re, it’s normal.
Brett (12:47)
Well, I love cheap phrases. So if you do want to give us a one, two, three, or just some cheap phrases that you’ve used, like for example, I know for myself when I’m not ready to set a boundary, because I just feel like I’m overloaded, uncomfortable. I just ask for more time, which is a bit of a cop out, but it’s also, I think, a great strategy. So if you’re listening, it’s something you could consider using, which is basically I just say, let me get back to you, or let me check my schedule and get back to you. And it’s just sort of this.
delayed moment where it buys me more time to sort of check in with my body, maybe process for 24 hours, because I always want to say yes, because I’m a people pleaser, but also because I’m just like naturally enthusiastic and an optimist. But then when I actually look at the calendar, it’s like, wait a sec, there’s absolutely no way that this could happen. I mean, I love that I have the rose colored glasses and I’m optimistic about how much I can get done in a given day, but.
Andrea Owen (13:25)
Yeah.
like.
Brett (13:37)
I’ve gotten a lot better at knowing that this is going to lead to depletion. So that just for me has been a great strategy because then when I actually look at where things can fit in, it just buys me that time to both check in with my body, but also just to check in on a practical level and see, you know, what else is going on that week? Is there going to be enough time for self care and self nourishment and my actual priorities? My kids, my business, if I say yes to this, do you have things like that that have been helpful?
Andrea Owen (13:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, I like the, you know, you can kind of preface the no with saying, with gratitude, like, thank you so much for thinking of me or thank you so much for asking. I don’t have the bandwidth for that right now, but I would love if you would keep me in mind next time. So you’re not shutting the conversation. I kind of hate that that quote of like, no is a complete sentence. It’s like, who on earth, what woman on earth who was raised in this culture,
Brett (14:18)
That’s really nice.
Andrea Owen (14:30)
is going to be comfortable making that leap. Like it’s a big ask just to ask her to say no, but to just say no with a period at the end of it. Like if you can do that, my hat’s off to you. But many times it’s easier to say, thank you so much for thinking of me. I’m honored to be asked. And right now I don’t have the bandwidth, but will you ask me next time?
Brett (14:52)
I love that. I think that’s really grace -filled and beautiful. And you know, something that I’ve noticed is when I get nos from other women or, you know, nice nos, like the ones you just described, I get so inspired by them. I’m like, yes, because it’s almost like seeing them putting up a boundary inspires me or reminds me that I can do that too. So I always think when I now do this, I’m like, I could be inspiring someone else when they receive this.
Andrea Owen (15:06)
Yeah.
Brett (15:21)
to realize that they have choices in terms of how they spend their time and what they want to prioritize.
Andrea Owen (15:26)
Yeah, yeah. And if I could also give out an example of how to have a hard conversation with someone when you’re the one that has to bring it up.
I love when using, so for example, say you and I are really good friends and I’m just making this up. I don’t think this is really true, but like you’re chronically late or something like that. And I have something coming up where, you know, like really need to be on time and I’m a little nervous. I would say something like, Brett, I value our friendship so much. And I’ve been thinking about this a lot. And I feel like if I don’t.
say it, I’m not honoring our friendship because I don’t want to harbor any resentments and I feel like this might end up being a resentment. And it’s this event that I have coming up is so important that we’re on time and I’ve noticed that you tend to be late. Is there any way you can make an extra effort to be on time for this event this weekend? So you’re again, there’s that preface of where you’re essentially saying, I love us too much to not say anything anymore.
Brett (16:21)
Yes.
Andrea Owen (16:31)
So you’re setting the foundation that the reason you’re having this conversation is because you care about the relationship and it pains you to not say anything because you’re gonna harbor resentment rather than I’m saying this because I think you’re a jerk and I think you need to change. Like those are two very different energies to bring to the talk.
Brett (16:49)
I love that. I love that because yeah, otherwise you’re just not hanging out anymore. It’s like you’re making the effort. So that’s, that’s very beautiful. Circling back to shame. Cause I know you wanted to talk about shame resilience and I think I could be wrong, but you said there’s a couple of steps to how this is something we can build. We talked at the top of the episode about how we can, there’s no like shame potion that we can drink to like make it vanish forever. Bummer guys, if you invent that, let us know. but that I think that’s just a great.
Andrea Owen (16:53)
Right.
That’d be great.
Brett (17:17)
you know, tip right there is just normalizing shame. It’s something we’re always going to feel. It’s something we’re going to always struggle with as we navigate, you know, this ideal identity and that’s has cultural conditioning compared to our truth, how we feel in our bodies in a moment in time. So the goal is to become more resilient to shame because shame is inevitable as we grow is kind of the message I’m getting from you. So walk us through.
this process, I’m sure this also relates to one of your books. So make sure you’re gonna make sure to give us all the titles at the end, because I know you have so many, but what, like if I wanna go to the shame resilience gym, what does that look like step by step?
Andrea Owen (17:54)
Mm.
So the first thing is to know when you’re in it quickly. So it goes back to that whole saying of you have to name it to tame it, you know, self -awareness is half the battle. That’s where we start with this as well. It’s no different. And so the way that we get there, you know, and again, when I go through this with people on a much larger scale through the entire curriculum, we don’t even get to talking about shame really until the fifth of 12 modules, might even be the sixth, because it’s such a big visceral topic for people. It’s just,
gelatinous, if you will. But the whole point is the first step is to know that you’re in it as quickly as possible. So what that means is what happens to your body when you’re in shame? I know for me, I get tunnel vision, things slow down, I feel incredibly and suddenly alone. And sometimes I can feel it in my gut, like my stomach just sort of roils. And I get…
If it’s really bad, I might get tingling in my armpits. And I think that’s like connected with anxiety. And there’s usually a sort of a list of physical symptoms that most people can check off a handful of them, but it is unique for everyone. So first, what are your physiological symptoms? We also go through an entire process of what I mentioned a few minutes ago around really identifying your unwanted and ideal identities so that, you know, cause first one is body, know what happens to your body. Second one is mental.
So you know very quickly, I’m in one of my unwanted identities. I totally spaced on this interview that I had, and then the mind starts racing like, my God, I’m such an idiot. Like, how could I, you know, she’s gonna think I’m so stupid, da -da -da -da. That’s one of my triggers. So it’s instead of what happens normally for people who are quote unquote unconscious or just don’t have any awareness around it, no shade on them, it’s just they haven’t gotten there yet, but they’ll have a shaming moment and they’ll stay in it.
And then they will employ one of those coping mechanisms that we just grab onto because it’s a habit, but it doesn’t make us feel very good. And we kind of like stay in that gross place. So what I want for you, yeah, nobody wants to be, and some people fight shame with shame. They’ll fire back at someone, even if the other person didn’t mean to shame them. That’s some way people cope with it. But just all in all, it feels gross to stay in it. So I want to shorten that gap.
Brett (20:04)
Shame spiral.
Andrea Owen (20:22)
I want to, you know, from the moment that you’re in it, that the inciting event happens to the moment you realize you’re in it, I want that gap to be really short. That’s, that’s a huge win. So from there, once you realize you’re in it, then it’s a handful of things. So it’s self -compassion. I mean, you knew that we were going to get there. This is a new, right? So much self -compassion and also.
Brett (20:46)
All roads lead to it, yes.
Andrea Owen (20:51)
Obviously, that’s something you do as an individual and then empathy. So that would look like me, if I drop into a shaming moment, it would be me telling one of my dear friends or my partner what happened. And hopefully, and this could be a whole other conversation, hopefully they meet us empathetically. Hopefully they don’t try to one up us or are dismissive or try to fix it, which that happens sometimes. And we can have a conversation about that. But.
self -compassion, empathy are huge antidotes for shame. And the last thing is what we call speaking shame. So that’s talking about it. This conversation that you and I have is an antidote for shame. You know, even just like casual conversation saying like, I was listening to this podcast and this woman was talking about shame. I was interested because I was, you know, hearing about like my physical symptoms. What happens for you when you’re in shame? So it’s just having the conversation and normalizing it because shame likes to be in the dark.
and it just is exacerbated when we don’t talk about it. So that’s kind of it. That’s like my five minute version of a very long and deep process.
Brett (21:58)
Well, I love the name it to tame it. And I also work with something similar to that. So I think like, let’s just highlight everybody, write that down. I wrote it down and I put stars around it in my little notebook here. So, and then I love the physio like physiological noticing physically what’s happening in my body. And I, yes, I wrote it down as you were talking about it. So for me, it’s, it’s a feeling of panic and my heart racing. And then,
Andrea Owen (22:15)
I’m curious what your, do you know what your physiological symptoms are when you drop into shame?
Brett (22:26)
what I was going to add on. So it’s like heart racing, panic, almost like a shortness of breath. And then I want to get really busy, really fast to fix it. So it enter, like I enter like this fix it mode and that’s kind of like the mental component that goes with it. But I notice it’s like my inner strategizer comes out and she wants to start taking action really, really quickly to do anything to alleviate the shame or to alleviate the uncomfortable situation or to.
And so even just noticing that is very helpful because the decisions that get made from that place are usually not good.
Andrea Owen (23:05)
They’re usually not your favorite.
Brett (23:07)
They’re usually not the favorite or they really and they really I’ve made some very bad decisions from that kind of it’s like this hustly fast need to fix it as fast as possible energy that seems altruistic but it’s actually coming from my extreme discomfort and my inability to just be with the shame or sit with it or feel it or be like huh okay this happened let’s
nourish self -compassion, maybe hands on my body. If you’re seeing the video of this, like I literally just put my hands on my body and, and, you know, kind of go inward and soothe myself before, you know, unleashing my solutions in quotes, onto the world very quickly. Yeah.
Andrea Owen (23:44)
Right.
Which if I may, how I perceive that as someone who facilitates this work is that your hustling, your quote unquote solutions are a way for you to get back to your ideal identity. Because you want to be perceived a certain way by other people. So this is also the birthplace of perfectionism. Because inevitably, we make mistakes. I make mistakes, you make mistakes, we screw up, or we are perceived by someone else.
Brett (24:09)
Yes, I was just about to say that.
Andrea Owen (24:17)
And it’s not, it’s an untruth. Cause again, we have no control over that. That is going to happen. I guarantee it. So what people usually do is what you described is like, we immediately start to hustle because we want to get back to that place of our ideal identities. And it doesn’t feel good. Like, like I love that you said that too. Like I ended up making decisions that like, I regret like nobody, nobody really feels good in that. So yes, that is the birthplace of perfectionism. So the antidote, what it, how it would look different.
is that you make the mistake or you get perceived poorly by someone else and you tell someone about it. It might be your therapist. It might be, you know, a trusted friend or whatever. You also have lots and lots of self -compassion. Those are the two main things. Instead of some people brown nose, some people like go overboard into people pleasing perfectionism. Some people pull way back and isolate. They’ll completely quit their yoga business. They will, you know, I had a shaming moment one time in a, in a, in a conference room at my
since elementary school, and I immediately thought like, I can never come back here. Like, I can’t be friends with any of these people. Like, we just moved there. So the isolation, and then like I mentioned, and other people will fight back. They’ll fight, shame with shame.
Brett (25:30)
Mmm, it’s a lot.
Andrea Owen (25:32)
It is a lot. I know it is so much, but it can be life changing. And please like also keep in mind everyone, this is a very condensed version that we’re talking about here. It’s a lot of work.
Brett (25:42)
The self -compassion step, just to dig into that a little bit before we let you go, like the self -care, the self -love word is thrown around so much in our communities, right? Especially yoga. I think I even have an episode on this podcast where I talk about, I can’t remember what it’s called, but it’s like hating on the self -love buzzword or self -care buzzword, because it’s just, it seems like it’s just hot baths. And, you know, what, what does that self -compassion step look like for you or for some of your clients that you’re doing this work with?
Andrea Owen (26:04)
Yeah.
So Kristin Neff is a researcher in Texas. I believe she’s out of the University of Austin and she’s dedicated her professional career to this and done tons of research on it. And actually if you go to self -compassion .org, I believe it is at the navigation bar at the top, there’s a quiz that you can take. And what I like about it is that it rates you in the three different areas that she, her research has shown that self -compassion falls into. So the first one is self -kindness and that’s probably,
what we hear about the most that self -compassion is. It’s like, do you speak to yourself as you would someone you love and care about? It’s kind of the most basic version of it. But there’s also two other versions of that around self -compassion. And one of them is common humanity. So it’s the understanding and accepting that everyone has problems just like you. Because shame can feel very isolating. And we can get into these dark places where…
we feel so lonely and then that’s when we don’t reach out. So self -compassion is not only speaking kindly to yourself, but understanding that everyone’s problems are the same as ours. And then the third one is mindfulness. So that’s just, it’s the paying attention. It’s not necessarily being in a state of constant meditation. And if that’s you, that’s amazing, I’m envious, but it’s just paying attention to when you’re beating yourself up internally.
paying attention to when you’re calling yourself names, like I’m such an idiot. Or when you’re even when you’re being self -deprecating, because I think self -deprecating humor can be fine. Like we, I, I’m a huge, like that’s what my whole Instagram account is. It’s like, can we please have a sense of humor about personal growth? Cause it can get really dark and heavy sometimes, but pay attention to where you feel like it’s causing harm to yourself, where you feel like your self -talk is a matter of self -harm.
Brett (28:08)
It’s so incredibly important, the inner dialogue, right? And it’s funny because even in my son, as young as five or six, I started noticing that he had negative dialogue where he’d be like, I suck at this or I can’t, or he’d say, I’m so bad at this. And I’m just like, where did this even come from? Right? Because it’s definitely not something I remember saying to him or did consciously.
And it just, like seeing it in him so young, it’s really made me realize that like this is an aspect of just being human. And then I just always tell him, I say, speak kindly to yourself. And then what was so crazy is I noticed my younger son, who’s even younger than him, would say, I’m so bad at this, just kind of echoing him, like in a funny way, like he doesn’t even know what it means, he just copies anything he’ll say. And so it’s just so fascinating how we need to notice.
the dialogue if we don’t these self -deprecating thoughts slip in even this early in childhood. And I think this is a great tie -in with just like yoga and breath work and having that awareness because any yoga you do, any breath work you do is helping you gain more awareness of that inner dialogue of those thoughts. And so I definitely, I’m also familiar with Kristin Neff’s work but I did not realize she had a little…
you know, kind of quiz. Who doesn’t love a quiz? So we can all go check that out. Andrew, is there any last things you’d like to share about either shame or boundaries or self -sabotage or all the things we’ve sort of circled on thus far?
Andrea Owen (29:31)
I know.
Yeah, I think, you know, we just turned 49 last month and I’m currently on my second divorce. So I’m kind of going through like this major transition of like being in the last year of my forties and just sort of like taking inventory of like what’s important and, and where I’m at in my own personal growth journey. And here’s what I’ve come to realize. And I know I still have decades ahead of me, but in my young 49 years and also being an expert in, in our field is that.
self -love, self -compassion, you know, these like big sort of umbrella topics that we’re talking about. I believe they ebb and flow. I think that you can have all of the tools and all of the strategies and even on your best days, sometimes they can be hard to implement and on your worst days, they can be kind of easy to implement. Like you just kind of never know what you’re going to get.
And I also think that sometimes when we hit these really big transitions, like the ending of a long relationship or a milestone birthday, I think it’s totally normal to have setbacks and at the same time, realize how far we’ve come because I am a different woman entering this divorce than I was my first divorce when I was 30. And so I just, it speaks to self -compassion, I guess, is what I’m saying is that everything is normal.
It’s normal. And it’s just like life really is just about noticing and being kind to yourself. Like if you can, if you could have those two steps of just noticing and being kind to yourself. And then if you’re lucky, try to course correct, you’re doing it right. Like I give you so much applause, like standing ovation for that. And you just got to keep, keep on keeping on, just keep trucking and knowing that you’re, you’re doing it. You’re doing a really, really great job.
Brett (31:39)
Yes, I love the ebb and flows, you know, some months, some years were strong, others not so much and just normalizing that I think is so important. Tell people where they can find you and I know you have a bunch of fantastic books, like which one should they start with? Because I think that’s something that someone might get overwhelmed by as well.
Andrea Owen (31:44)
Yeah.
I think that your audience would, if they struggle with self -sabotage and like kind of all of those patterns that I mentioned, how to stop feeling like shit. I hope I can cuss on your podcast. If not, you can just bleep that out. That’s the one that’s been translated into actually 20 languages now. I need to update my bio. Start there and then make some noise, which is also the name of my podcast. That book has a little bit of a feminist angle to it. If anybody…
is interested in that. And then also my podcast is Make Some Noise, which you’ve been a guest on not too long ago. So then go check that out. And that’s probably the best way to find my work.
Brett (32:26)
Yes. Have fun.
Okay, absolutely, that’s great. And I will put her books, I will put your website, everything in the show notes. Andrea, thank you so much for sharing with us and getting me to reflect on my own shame spirals and what that feels like physically. I always love doing that kind of self -reflection and doing it out loud with other people because you’re right, you know, shame can only live in the dark. So the more we talk openly about it, the better. And the more you can be in a group program or with a therapist or a coach talking actively about it, the less power it will hold over you.
Andrea Owen (32:37)
Thank you. You’re welcome.
That’s my favorite.
100%.
Brett (33:00)
I hope all of you practice some self -care, self -compassion, and most importantly, do some yoga and breath work today. I’m sending you all so much love. And from my heart to yours, namaste.
